I honestly, sincerely like IV (IV, I think you know that). I think we should honor IV's decision, whatever it is, whether it is to stay or to go.
Woyano is a "community." But let's not begin to think that it's a community. In a community, you're more or less forced to stay and bear with the nasty neighbors. If you're wealthy, you never even think of living in "that kind of community." You go buy a lovely residence in a gated community.
Is Woyano to be a gated community? Will we enforce some kind of code, beyond already existing laws? Will we enforce (the dreaded) "political correctness?" Will you have to pass a test to live in Woyano World? It's Woyano's choice. I, for one, am agin' it.
I can't be sure, but I think I know with whom IV had this chat. If I'm right, I know this to be a good person, but a person who cares very deeply about the things this person believes in. Too deeply? Who says? I'm certainly not going to make that judgment. On the contrary -- I fight and work and cajole my entire working life to get my students to know enough about something and care enough about something that when they hear someone saying something objectively wrong, they have the guts to get up and say, "THAT'S WRONG."
Sometimes, I think, it's necessary to applaud rudeness.
Woyano is a cool place. But it's not perfect. One of the first postings/discussions we had was about a "code of behavior." I myself find it odd that someone can post something that is objectively false, but because "everyone has a right to their opinion," that posting is somehow not objectionable. But if you respond -- insistently -- that this is hollow, and false, and propagandistic, some people (not all, by any means) react as though you have broken some sort of code of honor.
I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion (as though you could prevent it). But I don't believe anyone has a right to make up their own facts, to try to foist a perverse, imaginary view of reality on anyone else. And yet, perverse, imaginary-reality-foisters have a comfortable home in Woyano.
I don't know the economic structure of Woyano, but I have an idea of the pressures the Woyano team is under. Unless I'm entirely mistaken, this is NOT a not-for-profit project. You need to cultivate as big a user list as possible, in order to build as big a readership as possible (if I'm wrong, please explain). So you're not really as concerned with the quality of the information as with the quantity of "hits" or page views, or click-throughs something or someone gets. Whether something is useful, or informative, or educational, or enlightening (intellectually or spiritually) really doesn't matter as much as whether it is getting viewed, and commented upon, and viewed some more. If I'm not mistaken, that's the real bottom line.
If my assumptions are correct, I think this is a real problem. All ideas are not equal, and so all opinions are not equal. This sounds like a very un-American thing to say, but it is not. In fact, this is the attitude this country was founded on. This is the attitude that Democracy was founded on. The idea that all ideas are equal, and all opinions are equal is very much a late 20th century attitude. It is part of the post-modern worldview. And it is the worldview of most Americans in this early part of the 21st century. But that doesn't make it either "American" or correct.
Democracy is all about discussion, debate, argumentation, and -- if necessary -- fighting about what ideas are worthy of broad consideration and what aren't. My view of what Woyano ought to be about is linked to this idea of democracy -- the dedate, the discussion, the argumentation, and -- whenever necessary -- the fighting.
Woyano is a free association of individuals into a virtual "community" (not a real community), so anyone is free to come and go as they choose. I would like to see it stay that way. I think, as the Enlightenment thinkers did, as the founders of this country did, that the good ideas will be accepted as such, and the bad ideas will fall by the wayside, and this will all happen through a vigorous discussion of those ideas.
This means that some people who hold bad ideas will be told that they hold bad ideas. They will be told that their opinion, while they are entitled to it, stinks.
I have been having doubts for some time now (as Georgie will attest) that Woyano is up to this challenge. I fear that Woyano is almost hard-wired to go the way of the "free-market" approach to information, that is to say that Woyano is programmed to value information as a salable commodity, and not to judge information by its true worth.
I have, from time to time, introduced some "red herrings" to test this idea. The most recent time was this week when I posted some (admittedly amusing) pictures under the heading "How to Tell if your Woman Knows..." at the same time I posted an objectively very important story about a record opium poppy harvest in Afghanistan. The funny, amusing, entertaining posting got (at last count) over 120 hits and a dozen or so comments; the important but, arguably, boring opium story got a handful of hits and 2 comments. This is not a criticism of the folks on Woyano; it is a criticism of Woyano.
I honestly hope IV stays. I think he's a charming and completely lovable chap (as well as knowing a thing or two about wine). But I honor his decision one way or another. But more importantly, I hope the people who are creating Woyano on a daily basis let it take its natural course, because I believe its natural course (outside the artificial constraints of profit) is to be a forum for the discussion/debate/argumentation of controversial topics.
That's what I hope. What do YOU hope?
I hate to lob a grenade and run, but I'm off to Toronto for a few days. I hope Woyanoians read this, think about it, and leave their thoughtful comments for all to read. I'll be looking for responses when I get back on Monday. Cheers to all!!!
Dr. Fallon
10 Comments
that is kinda sad to me since there are so many sites that are exactly like that out there
about the only thing that keeps me coming back are posts that are informative, funny or interesting in some way
though i have made some wonderful, sincere, and honest friends from here! *S*
ill always be grateful for that!
I’d hate to see IV go, but he knows what’s best for him I’m sure .. and beyond that point what more really needs to come out of all this? I don’t really see the point to this post .. really sorry Dr. F ..but honestly .. whatever happened to people sorting out their own differences? I read IV’s explanation as I’m sure most of us did, and it seemed pretty straight forward to me. Cheers IV, and here’s to whatever decision you make!
But I enjoy commenting on stuff I do know - and I enjoy getting comments on my comments. I would be with Dr Fallon on this and feel that posting rules as such should not be necessary. If there MUST be rules, then I beg you, just make them common sense ones, like banning flaming. Perhaps a checkbox on the registration page that you have to tick that says "By registering with Woyano, I accept that everyone has a right to their opinion and, no matter what MY opinion is, I respect the rights of other members to disagree'.
More generally, there are several who post whose material I almost never read, since having read several items and having found their approach and content consistently to be of a sort that I dislike. But, so what, that I dislike the approaches/content and skip it? Some of my posts have drawn scant attention. And, so what, again?
As for numbers, what about "economy of scale" type thing _ *s* _ one doesn't need big numbers per item, necessarily, in order to have big numbers overall, if indeed big numbers are sought.
Basically, I agree with dreamz: "I don't think that issue has anything what so ever to do with the site itself, how it is run, or what it is meant to become ... it sure seems a mountain is being made of a molehill here."
Would we be any less of a community if we limited interaction to posting only? No commenting, no shout boxes, no emailing, no external conversations. We would still find ways to speak to each other through posts, because human beings tend towards relationships. Does Woyano even make any sense if we do not have the ability to share and learn from one another? We want and need to communicate, and as long as there is communication, there will be different types of communication. We can use our communication to support another's views, or thwart another's interests, but we will communicate.
This is a great place to meet people and form alliances and friendships outside of our normal social circles that are typically limited by geographical location and time. The internet provides a world of opportunity to expand our social groups. At the same time, it affords a free space where people open their mouths, let down their hair, and occasionally lose sense of conventional standards of behavior that dictate what is appropriate. I don't believe that there should be a Woyano policewagon tossing people out when they don't conform. I like the aspect of exploring non-conformity that is freed up in a space like Woyano. People can communicate all sorts of things to one another here, and that is very cool. What I don't like is when people start to lose sense of how adults behave in the real world, and they forget that the social rules that apply to our actual lives also apply to our virtual lives.
As long as we have the ability to communicate to one another, we also have the choice to use our words with respect and maturity. It's something we all learn in grade school. You are free to communicate, but its the way you arrange your words that influence the kind of response you're going to get. Put downs usually get a negative response- they don't further your argument and they don't make you very popular either. That's a very basic way of phrasing it, and now we are adults and we can think in more sophisticated terms than "put downs", but the basic idea remains.
I enjoy hearing from everyone, and I agree that Woyano should be an active forum where people argue their sides of any issue. I think that it's fine to attack the issue, but it's not okay to attack the person. Having observed other social websites, and without naming names, I can see the way their users fall into patterns of immaturity, character assassination, and tactical alliances that spiral downward into absurdity. I'm pleased to see that Woyano members have kept things at a high level of intelligence and thought, and I hope that communication between members will remain so in the long run. I plan to do my part to contribute to this kind of community, and if I ever slip, I trust the judgment of my peers to help me find my bearings again.
When I edited it, it removed the formatting.
Hey you know AdGuy always gets the last word! ;)