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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...d/middle_east/7106234.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h...d/middle_east/7106234.stm
The 19-year-old, who has not been named, was travelling in a car with a male friend last year, when the car was attacked by a gang of seven men who raped both of them.
She has become known as the "Qatif girl", a reference to the largely Shia town which she comes from.
Four of the men were convicted of kidnapping - but the court also sentenced the woman and her friend to receive 90 lashes each for the crime of "illegal mingling".
Last week the court increased the woman's sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison.
It also banned her lawyer from the courtroom and took away his licence.
The justice ministry said in a statement that the sentence was justified because the woman was in a car with an unrelated man.
Alistair Mad Scotsman
27 Comments
because the woman was in a car with an unrelated man !!
I see something a touch wrong with this?
The Saudi policies are bloody outrageous. Unfortunately our govt and the US one are in bed with Saudi so we hear more about human rights' violations in Iran etc..
Death of a Princess was about Saudi
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/p...frontline/shows/princess/
I can only hope that the internet will expose these incidents to the rest of the world so that the perpetrators are made to hang their heads (or, preferably, fall on their swords) in shame. OMG that poor girl.
People look at this over here... and are outraged at how the lass who was raped can be punished just for being in the persons car. People there, may well see it as a case of, if she had not broken (their) society's rules in the first place, she would not have been in the place to be raped in the first place, ergo its her fault that the crime happened and the law must be seen to be punishing her for her misdemeanour's
Tis a stark contrast indeed. The only parallel I can come up with is that, over in the uk a burglar broke into a shed, and was in the process of stealing some tools when the owner came out and promptly shot him! The reaction was that.. the person who was protecting his property was prosecuted... (as has been the people who committed the rape)... but the public all felt that the guy was well within his rights to shoot the guy.
For myself.... of course it disgusts me... but, if you are to follow the pricipal that the girl must be punished for her initial "crime", surely the being raped should be punishment enough? That would be the common sense (if thats a term which can be stretched enough to apply here) way to go about it. I'm not justifying anything, what i'm doing is trying to examine whats happened and what kind of mentality must be needed for the situation to arise in the first place.
I have to admit... i'm struggling with it.
Not to all of them, Alistair. In Afghanistan, in Iran, in Pakistan, there are women fighting against such behaviour and such laws. -- and in Saudi.
I had a web page for you on this, but it -- the feminist newswire, feminist.org, that carries a lot of stories about women in the Middle East, has been hacked; type http://www.feminist.org and you'll get this
http://burayabak.110mb.com/hackf.php
Anyway. It is not they/them as a whole.
Having said that: I do think your impulse to understand this is really good.
Look at the iraq war. The uk and usa invaded. Ergo these societies have approved and accepted that. Yet we all know that billions of people oppose it. That doesn't change the fact that these nations still allowed it and are therefore seen as nations who are for that course of action.
Wanting to understand comes from an urge to get some form of context for something which, a country of millions sees as ok, and me as an individual sees as wrong, because from a personal point of view... were i to live in that society, i would have to accept it the same as the majority of people do there.That would make my ideas on how society should be, as radical, and leave me liable to all sorts of punishments for my beliefs. Transpose this to a global scale where the Saudi justice system is the "individual" doing what it thinks is right.... and you get the idea of the perspective.
I like to think that, my ideas of what's right and wrong can be put down to common sense, but i'm sure if i put this to the Saudi prosecutors it'd be seen as arrogance. But then, as i say, what's common here, is not what's common there, so the phraseology "common" sense... is in its self, orientated around our societies and therefore what falls within it's definition is a variable beyond almost all our scope of rational comprehension.
Your statement about spending a week as a female is interesting. He would no doubt find stark contrast to his life as a man. The problem with this is.. it's because he has a different point of reference, moving from one state to the other. This girl, does not. She's lived her whole life as a female in that society, and knows nothing else. Ergo she is aware of societies rules and her place within that society.
Think of it like a person born with only one arm. You can miss the IDEA of having the other arm, but you can't actually miss the arm because it has never belonged to you so you don't have that point of reference. I have a 5 year old child, whom i have spent all of 10 days (@ 4 months old) with in his lifetime. He cannot miss me, nor I him.. because we have no knowledge of life with each other, we can only miss the idea of what it would be like, (something i think actually makes things easier for us both).
Keep ranting... my empathy with the Saudis law system isn't exactly blossoming and bearing fruit, but your objections are giving me input to work with :)
There is no grey dividing line. Truth is truth whether anyone knows or believes it. Inhumanity is inhumanity whenever any person suffers injustice at the hands of another. I don't care about 'perspective' in this context. If the punishment does not fit the crime, the punishment is a crime in itself.
Especially in a case like this, where the supposed 'crime' is victimless. How can anything that harms no other being be a crime?
Arabia used to be civilised. They gave the modern world so many things including maths and our alphabet. And then something happened to change all of that. I read fantasy fiction (Lord of the Rings ilk) and the premise in most of them is 'defeat the instigator of evil else face a thousand years of darkness and hell'. Of course the hero, the bringer of light, always succeeds in the end (think Belgariad, Sword of Truth). I have often wanted to write my own take on what such a world would be like if the forces of good did not prevail. I don't need to - it's happening right now.
As for "How can anything which harms no other human being be a crime" there are zillions of things there which could be listed, not least voluntary euthanasia. The lass being out with someone she shouldn't be with, to us seems trivial, but its a cornerstone of who and what is expected of the people of that country. Their society is far stricter about the do's and don'ts within that society.
I don't agree at all with what's gone on. Far from it. I posted the topic for a couple of reasons, one being that I thought it merited finding by people so that they can be suitably outraged by it, and two, so that i can then use peoples reactions to see if, from their own reasoning's as to why this was wrong to be happening, I could formulate some sort of parallel mindset to the people of this country who have created these laws in the first place.
Fantasy fiction.. You tried any Neal Asher?
Look at (again this is minor in comparison) J-Walking laws. In Canada the pedestrian has the right of way. In Mexico the vehicle has the right of way. If a Canadian goes to Mexico and gets hit by a car that they stepped out in front of, the Canadian is at fault and most likely sent to prison.
And slavery is one of the most obscene concepts I have ever heard of. Yet up until North America declared slavery abolished, most of the rest of the world still did not have a problem with it. Many nations in Ancient Greece had laws concerning the proper treatment of slaves. They were one of the most civilized cultures the world has ever known, and yet slavery was not only acceptable, but speaking against it would be like denouncing the Gods.
None of this excuses what has happened to these young people, which are beyond vile by our standards, and I would love to put a foot print in someone's back side over it. Hopefully with work and empathy, these types of things can be changed, and rid from all society, as was done for the most part with slavery.
Moose, this year's the anniversary of the British abolition of the slave trade in 1807
http://www.bbc.co.uk/abolition/
slavery had been declared illegal in England, and the remaining 14,000 slaves emancipated, in 1772 (by a judgement that also meant that slavery contracted elsewhere could not be enforced here)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism
finally in 1833, slavery was outlawed throughout the British Empire (Canada, of course, included). And
From 1839, the British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society worked to outlaw slavery in other countries and to pressure the government to help enforce the suppression of the slave trade by declaring slave traders pirates and pursuing them. This organization continues today as Anti-Slavery International.
Here's Anti Slavery International
http://www.antislavery.org/
(Slavery was abolished in the US in 1865. )
I'm sorry, but any 'culture' that can condone brutal punishment for a victimless crime and any 'culture' that can sentence anyone to death (agonising or otherwise) on say-so (I refer here to a story of an Afghanistani girl shot in the back of her head for committing adultery despite the evidence to suggest she didn't), can not be called 'culture' at all. It can be called sadistic. It can be called in-human, even sub-human, but never 'culture'.
Despite reasoned arguments, duly read, digested and cogitated, I cannot see any justification for the treatment of any other person so brutally, so evilly, as discussed in this topic. I am not a closed mind. I am opinionated, that is true and of course I believe my opinions are correct because I do not leap to them. But I am always open to alternative opinions and will listen, digest and think about opposing or tangential views before amending my opinion or not.
I fully believe in justice. It is my overriding self-imposed 'commandment' if you like. I do not believe that anyone, no matter the 'weight' behind them, whether this be weight of law, morals, ethics or anything, has the right to cause anyone any injustice, whether this be maligning them, stealing from them, hurting them physically or mentally or (and especially) killing them.
And so, I believe that any society or people sadistically hurting others unjustly, has no right to hide behind 'culture'. I only wish there was a special place in Hell for these 'people'. What I find really galling is the fact that in the main, these 'people' do believe in Hell and that some form of judgement takes place after death and punishments are handed out. If there was any logic at all to these beliefs, it should be apparent that no earthly punishment is necessary. Therefore such punishments are self-gratifying actions, of the basest nature.
You may be interested to know that I have been invited to join some friends going to Saudi Arabia for a holiday. I will not be going. And they know why.
Good for you, snak. Good for you.
1: The woman being caught at all with a man who is not her relation makes her tainted, dirty, and brings disgrace to her family.
2: The subsequent rape of the woman, then means she is no longer a virgin, so more than likely unmarryable within that society, which again reflects on her family's status. (if she has sisters.. these too are now no longer eligible for marriage)
Status is everything within this kind of society. Ostracism is intolerable. You say that the "crime" she committed was victimless.. but her family will suffer in many ways from this, and it stems from her being where she shouldn't have been, with someone she shouldn't have been with.
The sad fact is, as pointed out to me by Esther here, it would not be surprising if the raped women is found dead, quite possibly killed by members of her own family, because of this. That's their way of life, and even has a basis in western society through biblical terms (Mark 9 :47 And if thine eye offend thee pluck it out. It is better for thee to go into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire).
Its not that long ago that the Uk still executed people. America still does. These versions of what we have as civilizations are still viewed by many as evil, and quite possibly, from a numbers point of view (ie populous) we.. in the west.. are in the minority!
Now there's some food for thought.
Also in the paper is another article about how 208 people were arrested in Saudi Arabia following an anti-terrorism sweep of al Qaeda-linked suspects.
Could THAT event have occured and been publicized in order to try to garner good by the Saudi Government because of the negative emotions people have towards the rape case? One can only speculate.
If it is the case, however, then it goes to show that nations CAN change their "cultural and religious" behaviors in light of world condemnation. Just as it was mentioned, slavery was viewed as "ok" by many nations until one nation started to point out how it was un-just to human rights and fought to abolish it- which brought it to the global attention. I'm sure there were quite a few nations who HAD slavery and still thought it was "ok" but abolished it due to global pressure.
While you bring up good points, Alistair, about the fact that the family will be disgraced and that is the way of their culture- what this kind of action shows to the world is that the Saudis view women as a man's possession and not as people. She has no rights for herself- no right to vote, no right to speak up for herself, no right to a fair trial. And while it may be culturally acceptible in Saudi, most of the civilized world finds it repulsive.
As for the US being "in bed' with the Saudis- in a situation like this that is almost the best scenario! We can influence and pressure change much more effectively as a friend than as an enemy. It is easier to withhold considerations shown or alliances formed when there IS an agreement between the governments than when there is not.
But of course, there is the counter argument that a nation should be allowed to have its own culture and not be influenced by any other- but- the result of this, as has been proven by history, is that this type of mentality is the one that continues to allow for the building of terrorism and hate in the nations where there is no true cultural regard for human life.
I have been told by a man, a complete stranger no less, as little as 5 years ago that it was my Duty to have children because I was female and that is how "God" made me. When I objected and expressed that I had no desire for children and it was none of his business, I was called down and he used his religion that if I did not become a brood mare that I would go to Hell. He, still in this day in age and western society, viewed me with almost no rights. And he was a Caucasian of a Christian faith who lives here. I set him straight, and made it clear in no uncertain terms what I thought of that particular opinion, and gave a clear suggestion as to where he could stick it.
I was MC at a friends wedding and the father of the bride tried to tell me that rape is a natural thing. He got the idea from watching horses breed and therefore thought rape was not bad, just natures way for ensuring procreation. Though tempted to smash his head into the table, I chose to gather what little self control I had and excuse myself from the conversation. Some how killing the father of the bride at the reception can be construed as bad manners regardless of the offensive garbage spewing from his mouth. This happened in June 2006. This is clearly a man who has not been violated or has any first hand knowledge of anyone who has.
I do not condone what has happened, I hate it with everything that I am, and support the people working to influence and change the views of the cultures who still allow theses atrocities to happen. And I am so thankful that my family, my mother, sisters, and friends do not have to live with theses conditions and constraints. My only point is that with out empathy, we are unable to change something like this. Telling someone that their way of life is wrong on the most basic levels (which in my opinion it is) is not going to motivate them to change or to reconsider their point of view. I am not justifying these actions or asking anyone to forgive what in my opinion is unforgivable, just trying to point out that there is a completely different mind set and value system at work here. I believe understanding that will give us the tools, desire, and ability to change it. Short of genocide, you can not force a nation to change their point of view. It must be presented in a way that they want to accept.
Think about if someone from that culture came into our countries and tried to tell us that our beliefs were wrong and that we would accept their laws and points of view regardless of what we wanted. Would we just accept it, or would we resist? Would we view their definitions of human rights and basic respect as good or would we want to keep our way of life? Would we look at their legal system and laws as superior or would we fight to protect our society from what we feel are injustices?
Again, what has happened here, which is more common than we are led to believe, is something that gives me nightmares. I hate it, I am sickened by it, and I desire to help those who were victimized by it and to prevent it from happening again. But what is the best way to do that? By denouncing it? By force? Or by education and influencing change? Just some thoughts.
http://saudijeans.org/200...2/17/qatif-girl-pardoned/
In either case, I suppose I shgould be whipped for having my wallet stolen or worse, being seen on a bus next to (gasp) a woman!
I'm sorry - I'm aware of your arguments and your strict adherence to the 'letter of the law' but I will never revise my opinion that a) a victimless crime is not a crime, and b) evil (and stupidity, see below) disguised as 'culture' is still evil.
Any artificial denial of humanity is stupid. To love is human, to want to interact with others is human, to err is human, to appreciate beauty is human, to want freedom to live as you see fit, without causing injustice to others, is human. To legislate against any of these is stupid. It's the same as saying that you can only breathe between the hours of noon and midnight on alternate wednesdays. Stupid because it's doomed to fail, due to the simple (and remember, God-given) fact that we are Human (as God made us, if that's what you want to believe).
If it's not stupid, it's evil. Take your pick.
Might i note... just because you don't understand a law, even in "civilised western countries", that doesn't mean that, if you break that law, you're absolved of guilt. Ignorance is not a defence. I say this, not because i think that the woman was not aware that what she was doing, but because your repetition of not seeing a crime, doesn't mean there wasn't one committed. Your not acknowledging this is not a reflection on the woman or the laws of that culture, but more a reflection on your own ignorance or intolerance, which in certain circles, would lead to you being labelled "stupid" for the former, and "Evil" for the latter. Dangerous assertions huh? lol
Having your wallet stolen, and being seen sitting on a bus next to a woman, in your country, is not illegal. I can see how you can have difficulty relating and understanding this issue if you are unable to differentiate between what's legal and what's illegal in a country.
To label the culture either "stupid" or "evil"... is laughable really. Saudi Arabia has a population of 27 million all of whom live in this culture, and many other muslim countries have the same rules. You define it as "stupidity" and "evil" through lack of knowledge empathy and understanding demonstrated especially acutely by your examples.
What right do you think you have, that you should define and then dismiss as evil and stupid a way of life which is normal for millions of people across the globe while not understanding the first thing about these people?
They're not stupid. They're not evil. They're different!
What bothers me is, there are people out there who are unable to distinguish between these, or are not even open to the idea that this possibility exists, either through ignorance, or unwillingness to accept the idea that there might possibly be a lifestyle out there which is so totally different from "their" norm, that were the tables turned, and they themselves were put into that society, they would be thought of as a philistine, as evil, or stupid, uneducated, heathen, hedonistic, etc because of their own way of life and what they're used to.
But of course... that could never be true....
Could it?
I fully agree with you when you say that I could be labelled 'Stupid'. 'evil', 'ignorant' for my dogged adherence to what I consider to be 'normal', in my western oriented attitude, when viewed by some people (even 27 million of them) for whom 'normal' is very different.
What's more, I accept their right to think so.I can get quite vehement in my 'outrage' with what I (yes, with my cultured eyes) see as injustice but again I appreciate that, seen from differently cultured eyes, my vehemence, my outrage even, can be seen to be misplaced, and stupid, or ignorant.
You must appreciate that at no time did I infer that the 27 million people you refer to are either stupid or evil. I fully appreciate that from an alternative viewpoint, many of the things I take for granted, living in the west, could be seen as 'stupid' or 'evil' by others living in a different culture.
Whilst I try to maintain (what I would consider to be) a sensible, common sense approach, I AM a product of my culture and I see 'injustice' where I see limitations placed on people (who, by definition of their humanity, are not that different from me) denying them the freedoms I enjoy. I have always maintained that I would fully support anyone's right to believe what they will, whether that 'fits in' with my comfort zone or not.
I accept that what is seen as a crime by other cultures may not fit MY criterion of 'crime', and I can accept that what I consider to be no crime at all could be seen by those cultures as crimes. Perhaps my use of the word 'stupid' was erroneous. In fact, thinking about it, it was and I would happily apologise to anyone who was upset or outraged by it.
I think I probably failed to get my point across properly. I believe that Humans are imperfect and no matter how hard we try to BE perfect, it is an impossible goal. We have needs and wants and they are occasionally at odds with what is permissable. As our needs and wants are part of our nature, any attempt to supress them is not only doomed to fail, it COULD be seen as either impossibly controlling, or at best, short sighted (look at prohibition in the States).
Some would say that suffering (in which ever way) or denying our Humanity is the way to enlightenment; that God (or whom/whatsoever) demands this and I can only respect their viewpoint whether I agree with it or not. And I DO respect that. Honest - I DO.
It is THIS case that has so upset me. I understand that Laws, however unjust they may seem to me, must be obeyed (for elsewhere lies anarchy). Perhaps I look at 'the ideal world' through rose-tinted spectacles, whilst viewing the 'real' world with cynicism. Rape is a punishment, a violation from which many victims do not fully recover. It may be argued that the girl got her just reward for being somewhere she shouldn't have been, with someone with whom she should not have associated. If so, 200 lashes (which would surely have killed her) seems to be a second punishment, which, to me, with my 'western' eyes, seems excessive. If my belief that all humans (and other animals) should be treated equally, with respect and understanding of their basic human-ness, is wrong then perhaps I'm on the wrong planet.
If I have offended anyone, I apologise. If I have appeared arrogant in my assertions of 'right' and 'wrong', I apologise. If I have failed to state how I feel honestly, and failed to remain true to my belief in the equality of human-ness and my abhorence of injustice, then I apologise.
I have no more to say on this subject.
That's the official view. I.e she needed disciplining and got it... so the 200 lashes were not needed.
I posted this topic so that you and others could react. Its an example of how people live in a different worlds, and so when one world is compared to another, we are preprogrammed to react by our upbringing to that which we find abhorrent, yet others live with everyday.
However much the idea of this woman being punished for "illegal mingling" offends me, and believe me it does, I think i can be understanding of the reasoning behind it. I just think that the reasoning is wrong. But in a world where we live by the laws in our own countries... i cant help but feel that your story of the man arrested for having sex with a bicycle in private has more of an impact upon what our society today is heading towards, than this case of a woman who violated her nations long standing laws and was subsequently found guilty of doing so.
And... as for vehemence... nothing wrong with that... lol...beats vapidity any day of the week! lol
Hey you know AdGuy always gets the last word! ;)